I would like to see a reunion of all American Anglican dioceses who do not ordain or license female priests. This is what we had as an Episcopal Church before the mid-1970s. There were high church and low church factions, but one church. The refusal of the ACNA to consider even a moratorium on WO, which is contrary to Scripture and the practice of the undivided church, means, in practice, they're going to continue to ordain female priests until they overwhelm the opposition. We can see this with the controversy at Incarnation Anglican in Williamsburg, VA.
My impression of the ACC, which I do not follow closely, is that there is too strong a whiff of "one true church" there, and that lower-church Anglicans would not be acceptable. This would be a mistake, I believe. Just as an "evangelical only" denomination would exclude the more catholic-minded, an "Anglo-Catholic" only denomination would exclude Anglicans who agree with them on essentials but not on the placement of the altar/table, what to wear when celebrating, and candles, etc. Either option would disallow numerous early Anglican writers.
Speaking as a Presbyterian (who admittedly communes more with Anglicans these days), there really seems to be no end to the fracturing once you start it. Next thing you know, Christ's Body lies in a hundred pieces, with the biggest always the least faithful and the smallest crippled by lack of ability or sanity.
I should think we would all hope for the retaking of the CoE, which for us Americans can only occur by means of TEC. For conservatives to leave ACNA to the liberals is moving backwards, not forwards. And sometimes a tactical retreat is necessary, but we must not kid ourselves as to whether or not it is a retreat.
"Speaking as a Presbyterian (who admittedly communes more with Anglicans these days), there really seems to be no end to the fracturing once you start it. "
Indeed. And in this case the splintering started with Henry and Elizabeth in the 16th century.
As you stated, he may in fact let you know what he thinks about it on his facebook, make another post and double down on it… but a few hours later he’ll delete the posts and act like they never existed
a disaffiliation happened once before when the APA diocese of the west elected to leave for the REC (and eventually became the convocation of the west in All Saints). only it was Grundorf deposing, or attempting to depose, before pulling back.
Thanks for the helpful history. I remember the Diocese of the West joining the REC for a time. But I did not know there was some friction involved.
Grundorf was an excellent Presiding Bishop with very good relations with the REC. His concerns at the time are understandable. And, frankly, the APA was wise not to join ACNA. (I say that as one in ACNA.)
As you stated, he may in fact let you know what he thinks about it on his facebook, make another post and double down on it… but a few hours later he’ll delete the posts and act like they never existed
All breakaways from the Catholic Church, eventually, and usually quite quickly, disintegrate into fragments which repeat fragmentation and so on. The evidence is in front of your nose.
I’m really not doing that, just stating the obvious. Have you read Newman? Yes, the Catholic Church is once again going through crisis, as it is want to do being run by imperfect people, yet it has survived all of them, and remains the original Church that Our Lord founded. Read Newman.
This constant fragmentation is part of the reason why I left the ACNA and converted to Orthodoxy. The cracks in the foundation were evident from the outset of the ACNA. It cannot continue. I was sure I had found in the Anglican church best expression of the ancient church and Western thought. I was there for 20 years, through the movements of the Holy Spirit, the splintering from the ECUSA, the anxiety of losing buildings, the sheltering in place under African bishops, then the formation of the new "orthodox" jurisdictions, but women could still be ordained, which still baffles me. It cannot continue. It will soon look like any other Protestant denomination and cease to be the Church of England, Anglicanism, or anything of the sort but just a smattering of people who use a certain prayer book and wear colored vestments and think that means something. I'll just say it as an invitation--come home to Orthodoxy. No church is without its problems, but the Orthodox have stood their ground since the beginning. I think we have the best chance at survival.
And yet Anglicanism globally is growing much faster than Eastern Orthodoxy which, tragically seems to be in terminal decline in its Eastern European heartlands. The war between Russia and Ukraine is so sad to witness where Eastern Orthodox are killing one another. Anglicanism certainly has its problems, but so does Eastern Orthodoxy, along with every other branch of the Christian Church.
Rate of growth has nothing to do with longevity. We've also sacked been and decimated over and over by both the Latin West and the Ottoman empire, so my point stands, that whatever may come, Orthodoxy stands because they are the church that was established from the outset and not a branch that will be cut off. I believe I admitted the reality that we have problems. Every church does. It's not a race. It's perseverance, and Anglicanism has not demonstrated the ability to not splinter and crack at the slightest pressure.
Interesting. I had no idea that this was even a thing. It makes me wonder what the possibilities might be depending on the outcome of the Bp. Stewart Ruch trial. If the ACNA rules against him, I think there may well be a mass exodus from the ACNA. I would be in favor of that. ACNA leadership has been utterly terrible and weak.
How long has he been bishop of his diocese? How many churches has he planted in that time? What sort of growth has he presided over? There has been a church planting and growth initiative growing in the G3 for several years. Bp. Scarlett sponsors a bi-annual mission conference, and anyone interested in mission can reach out and get involved. I think his criticism and move is small.
Mark: I do not understand your hesitancy about the Bishop Ansley and the Western Diocese of the ACNA. Would you mind explaining? Btw I saw that a gay Episcoplal priest from San Diego was soliciting 14-15 year old boys with the permission of his ‘husband’. So perhaps we have reason for thankfulness for the ACNA even as it struggles through the tough, early days.
The diocese of Western Anglicans is the ACNA diocese over So Cal, Nevada and Montana. Forgive my misspelling.Our Bishop is Phil Ashley who is also a canon lawyer.
Ah. Well, I'm not hesitant about him. I've heard nothing but good things about him. Are you thinking I'm hesitant because I did not include his diocese is my short list of good ones? I just don't know much about his diocese, and my short list is not meant to be exhaustive.
It provides comfort to me as a await confirmation into one, holy, catholic, apostolic church as a 66 year old. Two things:
(1) There seems a geographic overlap between this diocese and the schismatic diocese that you mention.
(2) Anglicans in North America seemingly have adopted American denominationalism. Thus the multiple bishops over overlapping geographical areas and movement of clergy/congregations hopping from one Anglican church to a different bishop and diocese. As long as this remains, the tendencies that you bemoan can continue - like radical
Protestants, if I find something I disagree with, I will just change my bishop and take my congregation with me. Individual conscience stands over the common good and the visible unity of the churches - as Newman taught, this liberalism undercuts the unity of the witness.
Thank you for your writing and work. I know that I deeply appreciate you.
I would like to see a reunion of all American Anglican dioceses who do not ordain or license female priests. This is what we had as an Episcopal Church before the mid-1970s. There were high church and low church factions, but one church. The refusal of the ACNA to consider even a moratorium on WO, which is contrary to Scripture and the practice of the undivided church, means, in practice, they're going to continue to ordain female priests until they overwhelm the opposition. We can see this with the controversy at Incarnation Anglican in Williamsburg, VA.
My impression of the ACC, which I do not follow closely, is that there is too strong a whiff of "one true church" there, and that lower-church Anglicans would not be acceptable. This would be a mistake, I believe. Just as an "evangelical only" denomination would exclude the more catholic-minded, an "Anglo-Catholic" only denomination would exclude Anglicans who agree with them on essentials but not on the placement of the altar/table, what to wear when celebrating, and candles, etc. Either option would disallow numerous early Anglican writers.
I like the vision. I dislike the schism.
Speaking as a Presbyterian (who admittedly communes more with Anglicans these days), there really seems to be no end to the fracturing once you start it. Next thing you know, Christ's Body lies in a hundred pieces, with the biggest always the least faithful and the smallest crippled by lack of ability or sanity.
I should think we would all hope for the retaking of the CoE, which for us Americans can only occur by means of TEC. For conservatives to leave ACNA to the liberals is moving backwards, not forwards. And sometimes a tactical retreat is necessary, but we must not kid ourselves as to whether or not it is a retreat.
I hear ya. But I think some reorganization is probably necessary.
Benedict before Boniface, etc.
Where orthodoxy is optional, orthodoxy will sooner or later be proscribed.
Richard John Neuhaus
Neither the CofE nor TEC can be 'retaken'.
There are 42 diocesan bishops in the Church of England, only one of whom is catholic in his theology. The rest are liberals or worse, women.
It is a nice thought, but these institutions are beyond saving at this point.
This is an incredibly sobering reality. Sheesh.
ONE!? Kyrie eleison
I know. :(
"Speaking as a Presbyterian (who admittedly communes more with Anglicans these days), there really seems to be no end to the fracturing once you start it. "
Indeed. And in this case the splintering started with Henry and Elizabeth in the 16th century.
As you stated, he may in fact let you know what he thinks about it on his facebook, make another post and double down on it… but a few hours later he’ll delete the posts and act like they never existed
Upon review, this "diocese" consists of 3 churches and 1 mission. How on earth do 3 churches and 1 mission make a diocese with a bishop?
a disaffiliation happened once before when the APA diocese of the west elected to leave for the REC (and eventually became the convocation of the west in All Saints). only it was Grundorf deposing, or attempting to depose, before pulling back.
https://www.anglicancow.org/p/about-us?open=false#§history
https://philorthodox.blogspot.com/2008/09/clarification-of-apa-situation.html?m=1
Thanks for the helpful history. I remember the Diocese of the West joining the REC for a time. But I did not know there was some friction involved.
Grundorf was an excellent Presiding Bishop with very good relations with the REC. His concerns at the time are understandable. And, frankly, the APA was wise not to join ACNA. (I say that as one in ACNA.)
www.ordinariate.net
No popery.
As you stated, he may in fact let you know what he thinks about it on his facebook, make another post and double down on it… but a few hours later he’ll delete the posts and act like they never existed
All breakaways from the Catholic Church, eventually, and usually quite quickly, disintegrate into fragments which repeat fragmentation and so on. The evidence is in front of your nose.
Rome is going apostate. The evidence is in front of your nose. You are in no position to look down on us Anglicans
I’m really not doing that, just stating the obvious. Have you read Newman? Yes, the Catholic Church is once again going through crisis, as it is want to do being run by imperfect people, yet it has survived all of them, and remains the original Church that Our Lord founded. Read Newman.
This constant fragmentation is part of the reason why I left the ACNA and converted to Orthodoxy. The cracks in the foundation were evident from the outset of the ACNA. It cannot continue. I was sure I had found in the Anglican church best expression of the ancient church and Western thought. I was there for 20 years, through the movements of the Holy Spirit, the splintering from the ECUSA, the anxiety of losing buildings, the sheltering in place under African bishops, then the formation of the new "orthodox" jurisdictions, but women could still be ordained, which still baffles me. It cannot continue. It will soon look like any other Protestant denomination and cease to be the Church of England, Anglicanism, or anything of the sort but just a smattering of people who use a certain prayer book and wear colored vestments and think that means something. I'll just say it as an invitation--come home to Orthodoxy. No church is without its problems, but the Orthodox have stood their ground since the beginning. I think we have the best chance at survival.
And yet Anglicanism globally is growing much faster than Eastern Orthodoxy which, tragically seems to be in terminal decline in its Eastern European heartlands. The war between Russia and Ukraine is so sad to witness where Eastern Orthodox are killing one another. Anglicanism certainly has its problems, but so does Eastern Orthodoxy, along with every other branch of the Christian Church.
Rate of growth has nothing to do with longevity. We've also sacked been and decimated over and over by both the Latin West and the Ottoman empire, so my point stands, that whatever may come, Orthodoxy stands because they are the church that was established from the outset and not a branch that will be cut off. I believe I admitted the reality that we have problems. Every church does. It's not a race. It's perseverance, and Anglicanism has not demonstrated the ability to not splinter and crack at the slightest pressure.
Schism, schism, schism. Baptists with robes.
Interesting. I had no idea that this was even a thing. It makes me wonder what the possibilities might be depending on the outcome of the Bp. Stewart Ruch trial. If the ACNA rules against him, I think there may well be a mass exodus from the ACNA. I would be in favor of that. ACNA leadership has been utterly terrible and weak.
I just see so many breakups that I honestly don’t see long term survival of the denom. Why was ACNA allowed to get so out of control?
How long has he been bishop of his diocese? How many churches has he planted in that time? What sort of growth has he presided over? There has been a church planting and growth initiative growing in the G3 for several years. Bp. Scarlett sponsors a bi-annual mission conference, and anyone interested in mission can reach out and get involved. I think his criticism and move is small.
Mark: I do not understand your hesitancy about the Bishop Ansley and the Western Diocese of the ACNA. Would you mind explaining? Btw I saw that a gay Episcoplal priest from San Diego was soliciting 14-15 year old boys with the permission of his ‘husband’. So perhaps we have reason for thankfulness for the ACNA even as it struggles through the tough, early days.
In Christ,
John Wright
I’m not aware of Bishop Ansley. And I’ve not heard of a “Western Diocese” in ACNA.
The diocese of Western Anglicans is the ACNA diocese over So Cal, Nevada and Montana. Forgive my misspelling.Our Bishop is Phil Ashley who is also a canon lawyer.
Ah. Well, I'm not hesitant about him. I've heard nothing but good things about him. Are you thinking I'm hesitant because I did not include his diocese is my short list of good ones? I just don't know much about his diocese, and my short list is not meant to be exhaustive.
I hope that clears things up.
Mark:
It provides comfort to me as a await confirmation into one, holy, catholic, apostolic church as a 66 year old. Two things:
(1) There seems a geographic overlap between this diocese and the schismatic diocese that you mention.
(2) Anglicans in North America seemingly have adopted American denominationalism. Thus the multiple bishops over overlapping geographical areas and movement of clergy/congregations hopping from one Anglican church to a different bishop and diocese. As long as this remains, the tendencies that you bemoan can continue - like radical
Protestants, if I find something I disagree with, I will just change my bishop and take my congregation with me. Individual conscience stands over the common good and the visible unity of the churches - as Newman taught, this liberalism undercuts the unity of the witness.
Thank you for your writing and work. I know that I deeply appreciate you.
John
Yall may drive me into the arms of mother Rome yet!! I am so conflicted
Well, Rome has more serious issues, harder to correct. Watch the Return to Tradition youtube channel for that. It's run by a trad Roman Catholic.