Sin, impenitent and promoted, is grounds for disfellowshipping those participating in such sin. In my opinion, when a political ideology leads to disobedience to God, it is sinful to participate in anything that furthers that ideology.
I weary of so many preachers using the pulpit to further the popular political worldly ideologies over the gospel of Christ.
When the leaders in the church of Christ align themselves politically with modern movements they separate themselves from the leadership of Christ and by doing so they sever the head from the body.
It therefore makes sense that the body of Christ should follow the head, who is Christ and excommunicate the church leaders who have departed from the Lord and his authority over the church.
Communism, Marxism, socialism and so many others “sins” are diametrically opposed to the teachings of Christ. Any attempt to unite the body of Christ with the sinful religions and political upheavals in this world is to lead the bride of Christ into adultery! No faithful Christian can embrace such evil.
Anyone who thinks that Christians can join in the current wave of incessant anti -Jewish hatred, for example, has abandoned the faith “once delivered to the saints”. We cannot take communion with those whose hearts are filled with hatred.
Indeed, the Lord controls his table and with whom he will commune. Christians should do the same to ensure that we are in communion with the Lord.
If I should ever stand alone in my communion with the Lord, I will not feel compelled to change anything in order to Pursue a wicked world.
Then on the flip side is the embracing of communion with others because of politics. Look at the embrace of Bonhoeffer, for instance, as a great Christian minister. A man who thought the virgin birht and bodily resurrection were myths. Were he a man of the street who presented himself for baptism or confirmation in one of our churches and denied either in the questioning stating they were myths we would rightly refuse him and label his view heresy, but no, Bonheoffer hated Hitler and so we dedicate seminars to studying him and elevating him as a Christian icon. The axe of political communion cuts more than one way.
Then we agree that he was a martyr. He did not die because he “hated Hitler”. He died in an attempt to end the war and human suffering. He could have just remained in the US.
Please quote Bonhoeffer denying the resurrection and the virgin birth.
Where is the written proof of this heresy in his own hand?
“Letters and Papers from Prison” were written by a distressed man waiting to be hanged. Anything from that source is not clear acceptable proof.
I believe him to be a Martyr.
If you wish to disparage the man then produce clear and convincing evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise it would be best to remain silent on the subject.
My Bonhoeffer study phase was 25 to 30 years ago and I did not keep a file of the specific instances only noting they existed when they occurred, however a few minutes with a search engine will provide you quite shortly what took me several months of reading and study to discover back then. Many theologians and scholars have well footnoted and referenced articles on all of the details now. I remember that is was something I ran across more than once so it stuck in my head that I had not, in fact misunderstood him elsewehere, and it wasn't just in the letters from prison.
I mentioned “beyond a reasonable doubt” when referring to the proof of Bonhoeffer’s heretical beliefs.
In civil law the level of proof is a “preponderance of the evidence” or 51% convincing of judge or jury.
Once again, do you possess that information to convict him in a court of law.
Years ago historians found records that Abraham Lincoln shared a room with another man in a hotel. After much celebrating by the media, the records indicated that all the rooms were doubled up with same sex travelers as was the custom of the time.
If Bonhoeffer was indeed a true martyr then it is our responsibility to tread lightly until “proof” indicates the opposite.
Years ago, yes I did but I am not going to go out and build a case to satisfy your desire. I would suggest you educate yourself about the beliefs inherent in the German liberal theologians of the time. Just because they opposed Hitler does not make them orthodox.
As to the assertion of being a martyr let’s be very clear. Bonhoeffer was not killed because he was identified as a Christian, he was not killed because he refused to deny the faith and therefore he was not a martyr for the Church. Bonhoeffer was in that camp for his involvement in the assassination plot to kill Hitler. That is the history. Now, was that action courageous / heroic? Indeed. Did that make him a martyr for the cause of freedom in Germany? Surely it did. But that does not make him a martyr for the Church. That happens right now every day across Africa and Asia. It is not the same and you insult the martyrs of Christ trying to make it so.
Good for you, Mark. One could say, "Where are the clergy who supported the likes of King Alfred - or for that matter, Charlemagne - when you need them?"
God help us to be wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. God save us from the temptations of the spirit of the age (read: globalism, Marxism, Feminism, etc.). God help us - above all things - to be faithful (I Cor. iv.2).
Remembering Pentecost, God grant us the illumining of the Holy Spirit that all heresy and lies may fall off of the Church and we can see, again, the distinctions between who we are in this world and who the world is that we are to oppose, both in and outside of the "Church" - ahem - "Militant".
Sin, impenitent and promoted, is grounds for disfellowshipping those participating in such sin. In my opinion, when a political ideology leads to disobedience to God, it is sinful to participate in anything that furthers that ideology.
I weary of so many preachers using the pulpit to further the popular political worldly ideologies over the gospel of Christ.
When the leaders in the church of Christ align themselves politically with modern movements they separate themselves from the leadership of Christ and by doing so they sever the head from the body.
It therefore makes sense that the body of Christ should follow the head, who is Christ and excommunicate the church leaders who have departed from the Lord and his authority over the church.
Communism, Marxism, socialism and so many others “sins” are diametrically opposed to the teachings of Christ. Any attempt to unite the body of Christ with the sinful religions and political upheavals in this world is to lead the bride of Christ into adultery! No faithful Christian can embrace such evil.
Anyone who thinks that Christians can join in the current wave of incessant anti -Jewish hatred, for example, has abandoned the faith “once delivered to the saints”. We cannot take communion with those whose hearts are filled with hatred.
Indeed, the Lord controls his table and with whom he will commune. Christians should do the same to ensure that we are in communion with the Lord.
If I should ever stand alone in my communion with the Lord, I will not feel compelled to change anything in order to Pursue a wicked world.
Then on the flip side is the embracing of communion with others because of politics. Look at the embrace of Bonhoeffer, for instance, as a great Christian minister. A man who thought the virgin birht and bodily resurrection were myths. Were he a man of the street who presented himself for baptism or confirmation in one of our churches and denied either in the questioning stating they were myths we would rightly refuse him and label his view heresy, but no, Bonheoffer hated Hitler and so we dedicate seminars to studying him and elevating him as a Christian icon. The axe of political communion cuts more than one way.
Yes, he was a good example in courage but not in orthodoxy. Germans since the 19th century tend to be that way, sadly.
Then we agree that he was a martyr. He did not die because he “hated Hitler”. He died in an attempt to end the war and human suffering. He could have just remained in the US.
Please quote Bonhoeffer denying the resurrection and the virgin birth.
Where is the written proof of this heresy in his own hand?
“Letters and Papers from Prison” were written by a distressed man waiting to be hanged. Anything from that source is not clear acceptable proof.
I believe him to be a Martyr.
If you wish to disparage the man then produce clear and convincing evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise it would be best to remain silent on the subject.
My Bonhoeffer study phase was 25 to 30 years ago and I did not keep a file of the specific instances only noting they existed when they occurred, however a few minutes with a search engine will provide you quite shortly what took me several months of reading and study to discover back then. Many theologians and scholars have well footnoted and referenced articles on all of the details now. I remember that is was something I ran across more than once so it stuck in my head that I had not, in fact misunderstood him elsewehere, and it wasn't just in the letters from prison.
I mentioned “beyond a reasonable doubt” when referring to the proof of Bonhoeffer’s heretical beliefs.
In civil law the level of proof is a “preponderance of the evidence” or 51% convincing of judge or jury.
Once again, do you possess that information to convict him in a court of law.
Years ago historians found records that Abraham Lincoln shared a room with another man in a hotel. After much celebrating by the media, the records indicated that all the rooms were doubled up with same sex travelers as was the custom of the time.
If Bonhoeffer was indeed a true martyr then it is our responsibility to tread lightly until “proof” indicates the opposite.
Years ago, yes I did but I am not going to go out and build a case to satisfy your desire. I would suggest you educate yourself about the beliefs inherent in the German liberal theologians of the time. Just because they opposed Hitler does not make them orthodox.
As to the assertion of being a martyr let’s be very clear. Bonhoeffer was not killed because he was identified as a Christian, he was not killed because he refused to deny the faith and therefore he was not a martyr for the Church. Bonhoeffer was in that camp for his involvement in the assassination plot to kill Hitler. That is the history. Now, was that action courageous / heroic? Indeed. Did that make him a martyr for the cause of freedom in Germany? Surely it did. But that does not make him a martyr for the Church. That happens right now every day across Africa and Asia. It is not the same and you insult the martyrs of Christ trying to make it so.
Re-read my post. I did not refer to him as a Christian martyr, so leave out the insult terminology.
“I have always been taught” and “if he is who I think he was” is not sufficient proof to label a historical martyr as a heretic.
Good for you, Mark. One could say, "Where are the clergy who supported the likes of King Alfred - or for that matter, Charlemagne - when you need them?"
God help us to be wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. God save us from the temptations of the spirit of the age (read: globalism, Marxism, Feminism, etc.). God help us - above all things - to be faithful (I Cor. iv.2).
Remembering Pentecost, God grant us the illumining of the Holy Spirit that all heresy and lies may fall off of the Church and we can see, again, the distinctions between who we are in this world and who the world is that we are to oppose, both in and outside of the "Church" - ahem - "Militant".